Hi buddies!
No... I'm not here to launch a new trend about Simone de Beauvoir (actually, nothing more can happen with her, right now...) but to talk about how I agree with her thesis and how it teaches us about the actual world.
In The Second Sex, Beauvoir talks about the myths that are made around the woman. She explains how historic and mythic facts have altered the image of the woman in our societies. She says that the "woman" is a construction, a social construction. She explains that the human beings learn to be men or women as they are socially determined by their sex. In her book, she draws the life of a typical woman as she becomes a young girl whose dream is to being married as the little boy doesn't even expect any woman to have a significant role in his future. Then she experiences her first love affairs, her disappointments, goes through phantasms, erotism and sexuality. Thus she becomes a woman, have children and then feel the decrepitude of her maturity
until he dies. She's always, in Beauvoir's point of view, the result of the man's will. She's a good girl because her mother told her to be so as she has to look right for men's sake. She's having sex because men ask her to. She marries because she accomplishes a little girl's dream and can't consider her life complete without a man. She has babies because the man want her to perpetuate his family. And she keeps making choices according to the man's will.
What is more sad about the woman's situation is that she's not helping for it to be changed. The man can be as authoritarian, misogynist or conversely keen to the feminist's cause as possible, if the woman doesn't make it an effort to overcome man's command, she's destined to remain a slave - if not sexually or physically - psychologically.
Woman is a woman as she's biologically determined to be so. She's the biological function of being a mother and the social one of being a wife, a daughter or a sister. Beauvoir has made a huge work on woman's condition. She points out all the struggles women have to go through in order to remain proud. What I personally think is that we're mistaking the debate. It's not about telling if the woman is inferior to the man or if the man has to be more incisive in his behavior than her ; it's not about telling that they should both overcome all of their differences and become the same. It's about showing that woman is not the same as man and that it doesn't inform us about the fact she's less favored than him. We should not focus on the differences between them both but on how they are additional. It's funny how people think being a man and having a penis is preferable of having a vagina ; while the same people would say that it's an inconvenient for women to have a breast and men not. It's the same debate about the hair, the way both should dress, the way both should be spoken to, etc. Finally, even those who take woman's defense are stuck in the Westerner's trick, considering that every biological aspect of the woman is inferior to the man's. I agree with Beauvoir saying that the social functions given to the women are likely to be degrading but I believe - and this is the limit I point out to her work - that her analysis is a Western lecture. I'm not talking of the women being considered weak and being raped or abused all over the world, but I talk about primitive societies, countries like South Africa or even the religions - even though people think they're all androcentric, that's another debate - who consider the woman in a different way as in our societies.
Beauvoir has a remarkable analysis and made people focus a lot on woman's condition. But in some ways, where she sees differences, I see complementarity.
Hope y all did get my point. And if not - because my mind is a bit messy - don't hesitate asking me questions.
Hi Tony !
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I would like to thank you for your post blog. I totally agree with the lecture you propose of Simone de Beauvoir. I salute her devotion for women's condition. She has done a lot of things for women, above all for French women just like the termination of pregnancy. According to her, women must take their destiny into their own hands in order to be free. However, you say that Simone de Beauvoir gives a Western point of vue of women's condition. I think I understand what you meant by that, but, can you develop it ? Is it not the point of vue of a rich Western female ? Furthermore, what do you think about the Femen ? Indeed, I truly convinced, they are fighting the wrong fight, betraying De Beauvoir because they do not want sex equality, but, female domination. So, contrary to the universal fight of De Beauvoir, the feminism seems to be divided in lots of opposing movements.
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ReplyDeleteHi Tony,
ReplyDeleteI generally agree to you that Beauvoir's theory has a power even to this day, which is admirable and sad. However I also agree to Fiona's comment, on that you could have elaborated more about Beauvoir's view being a Westerner's. Guess I can reply to her question for you - I recall Beauvoir pointing out in her writing that white bourgeoisie women tend to form an ally with men in her own social status rather than with black working class women, and wouldn't that tell us that she was well aware of this trap? (Indeed, the second wave feminism can be criticized by this aspect even though Beauvoir's writing was one of their inspirations.)
Though I get what you tried to explain through the mention of women's differing role in primitive societies - the role allotted to women are only arbitrary and not a natural one. Her argument was never to declare whether female is superior or inferior, or even equal to male. It was all about how the idea of 'woman' is created and maintained by men to continue their dominance over women.
Hi Tony,
ReplyDeleteI generally agree to you that Beauvoir's theory has a power even to this day, which is admirable and sad. However I also agree to Fiona's comment, on that you could have elaborated more about Beauvoir's view being a Westerner's. Guess I can reply to her question for you - I recall Beauvoir pointing out in her writing that white bourgeoisie women tend to form an ally with men in her own social status rather than with black working class women, and wouldn't that tell us that she was well aware of this trap? (Indeed, the second wave feminism can be criticized by this aspect even though Beauvoir's writing was one of their inspirations.)
Though I get what you tried to explain through the mention of women's differing role in primitive societies - the role allotted to women are only arbitrary and not a natural one. Her argument was never to declare whether female is superior or inferior, or even equal to male. It was all about how the idea of 'woman' is created and maintained by men to continue their dominance over women.
Hi Tony !
ReplyDeleteBefore anything else, I want to thank you for having clear and lucid vision. I'm talking about the real debate and I agree with your opinion. And unfortunately or not, the perception of this debate is decisive for the end of it. And in a certain way, it is a pity that some organisations continue to talk about the wrong points. It's not about differences in a natural aspect and how talk, but really a questionning on social equility and not equivalence. In other terms, like Beauvoir seems to explain, women's condition are obvioulsy an issue, but if someone confused the debate, there is a risk. And this risk is to divise society in some groups, not especially two parts.
Not original, but also the same question : what do you mean when you talk about "Simone de Beauvoir gives a Western point of vue of women's condition" ?
Besides, what is your opinion on some studies who analyze that perfect gender equality will not be here before 2133 (or 2100, not matter) ?
hi tony!
ReplyDeleteI really liked your post and found it very clear and informating.
When it comes to Simone, I do support all her fight to make woman independt and to be seen equal to men. On the other hand, I do sostain that her anaylisis is very reductive and that her premises come only for a little part and fron the total. Personally, i do not believe that we become woman, I think that one is born women or men, but they way that they express theur sexuality is learnd. Its a relly difficult point to understand, amd if I started trying to probe my point though this post I would probably have to write about six pages!
To sum up, I believe that it is true what she says that woman are a social concept, for instance, publicuty has made man and women thinks that we should be in somekind of way...
Hi y all! Im really surprised my post provoked that much reaction from you... still im also really happy about it!
ReplyDeleteI'm answering to you all and if it comes you've got other questions, don't hesitate, i'll try to be the clearest ever.
Fiona, Im glad you understood my point and that I wasn't of those masochist horrible guy, haha! I think Haeon did answer well to your question, but let me explain myself further : I personally think that, as a Westerner woman, she only could have explained how women are "treated" in our societies. This is not to say that, elsewhere, they don't suffer from man's "domination" but it means that she doesn't describe it accordingly to the reality of those others societies. In the Westerner's society, the woman is used as a sexual object, socially built to conform to man's sexual desires and phantasms. Even when it's not about sex, men - and even women - find it normal that women should wear low necklines and short dresses to please other men and/or to have a better job (and this ain't even a joke, I mean, studies proved this fact...). BUT she doesn't explain how it is going in other societies. We can easily guess that, in some African or Asian societies, people are still stuck to their androcracy statements, which result from beliefs Westerners didn't even know. In some Middle-Eastern countries, people are mistaking the holy Quran with some creepy ancient traditions, submitting physically, socially, morally and sexually women to men. Her error is not only in the fact she doesn't describe all of that, but that she passes away a lot of explicative paradigms. Feminism is not the same whether in our societies or in others. And if we don't clearly mobilize what causes those problems to women - and thereby to men -, we're missing the keys to resolve this problem. Globally.
And you got that right Haeon, Beauvoir is not about wondering whether women or men should be superior but that they have biological differences that don't allow anyone to assign them to any hierarchical place.
And YES the FEMEN are totally missing the point. I mean, they are totally falling into the misogynists' trap : thinking that one or another should take the lead. And furthermore, thinking that women should do it in breaking all their relationships with men. They're just, in my opinion, a bunch of excited activists who don't even know what they are fighting for... a bit like ISIS members, defending Islam and killing muslim people.........
Hahaha Maxime I love how precise you are on the date (if you could send me these analyzes, though...). I'm not kind of a modern Nostradamus, or else. Since then, it's a tough question (grrrr). But I think that as long as men think that women are inferior to men because they have got a vagina and breast and women keep on fighting for things that are at their disadvantage, no solution will ever be found.
Lastly, Lucia (hehe), your point is actually. I tried not to be too intrusive in my argumentation (because I mainly wanted to expose Beauvoir's one- but now you're talking about it, I do think women and men are born different (like... it is biologically obvious) and I don't think that girls learn how to become women nor boys learn how to be men, but that society builds stereotyped human beings and classifies them into races, religions, genders, etc. and that human beings - boys or girls - have to wake up from that servitude and realize both can't live without the other....
(what a beautiful ending, tho haha)
Hey guys,
ReplyDeleteI'd first like to chime in on the criticism regarding Beauvoir only talking from a POV of white, rich Western women. From my reading of Beauvoir I don't think she is in any way claiming that her view about female oppression is the same all over the world. In fact, she points out that there should be no collective definition of womanhood; this is in my view applicable to all societies (no society should impose how men or women should behave). Since there are some commonalities among white Western women (i.e. they have to some extent similar experiences), it makes more sense to talk only from this POV than from all women on the planet. Trying to solve ‘the problem’ globally, as you suggest is needed, would therefore undermine Beauvoir’s argumentation.
Also, I have a hard time understanding your point regarding ‘complementarity’. Maybe, I just understood it wrongly what you wanted to say (so feel free to clarify in case I did). I don’t understand what’s wrong with Beauvoir pointing out the ‘differences’; that’s the essence of her argumentation: women are being oppressed. Of course, from today’s point of view we can say that men suffer from societal expectations too (i.e. men need to be strong, earn a good salary, can’t appear weak but at the same time should be empathic, stay at home with the kids, cook dinner and listen to their partner’s problems). But what I don’t get is, why or where you see complementarity in the differences Beauvoir pointed out?